reports of officer down or deputy as they were calling it on the scanner. the scanner traffic i heard does support the report from ana garcia which is there were two women or a woman and a girl reporting a car stolen. there was a dodge 4 x 4 and an interesting report here, we were talking earlier about him being -- whoever the suspect is, out of control. the reports on the scanner were that the truck according from the woman from whom it was stolen, was almost out of gas. what sounded like a chase quickly turned into a foot chase and i can describe the scene for you. right when that shots fired call came in and i was up there, it was a madhouse -- >> we've been listening to our local affiliate knbc reporting on a firefight involving christopher dorner who has been cornered we believe by police in the san bernardino mountains. a flurry of activity in this manhunt. obviously we'll continue to

follow this story as it develops. but chris matthews and "hardball" picks things up right now. good evening. i'm chris matthews up in new york. tonight president obama will deliver his state of the union and we'll have full coverage, of course, of that tonight. but first, there's breaking news out in southern california where police may be closing in on christopher dorner, that fugitive ex-los angeles cop sought in three killings. nbc's john yang is in our los angeles bureau, but let's go to former fbi profiler clint van zandt who has been watching this. he's on the phone. clint, what are we looking at here? it seems the evidence we have is he broke into a house in the san bernardino mountains, tied up two of the people who lived there, stole their pickup truck and is now trying to get away from police. >> yeah. it may be that's exactly the case. realize, chris, that's one of the scenarios that law enforcement had to the consider. as you know, up in those mountains where they've conducted this massive manhunt, there are literally hundreds of private homes and cottages, some that are occupied and some that

aren't. police believe they had done a house-by-house search, but somehow in one of those residences it appear that is dorner had managed to break in, held two people hostage for over an extended period of time, and now perhaps with one hostage attempted to make a break to escape from that area. there are media reports that suggest a vehicle he's driving, a pickup truck, has been wrecked or otherwise run off the road, that dorner has abandoned the vehicle, that he is still armed with a semiautomatic weapon, and there are media reports that a running gun battle is taking place with him and the authorities and that at least two officers, wildlife officers in that area, may have been wounded in the ongoing firefight. >> we know already that he's being held or he's also been officially charged with murder of one police officer. he's been charged -- also has been reported with attempted

murder of two other police officers and he's being sought for the murder of a daughter and fiance of a police captain as well. let's go right -- hold on there. let's go to john yang, clint. he's nout out in los angeles. a lot of people have been following this case. >> this is what's -- what we're facing right now. for the past 20 minutes or so, there have been reports of gunfire being described by some as automatic weapons fire. what happened is that this guy, christopher dorner, former lapd cop who had been dismissed, left the force in january 2009 because of allegedly or he was found to have made false reports about excessive force by a fellow officer and has been trying to clear his name ever since that. it went to court, and then on sunday, a week ago yesterday, he

is believed to have killed michelle quan, the daughter of his union rep who represented him at this board of inquiry at the lapd. he killed her fiance or he allegedly killed her fiance, and then on early thursday was involved in a gunfight with lapd officers who were guarding another target that he had listed in his manifesto. as he fled from that scene, he is now charged, officially charged, with killing a riverside police officer, wounding another who were stopped at a red light. and ever since then, ever since thursday, the search has been going on. they found his burning pickup truck outside big bear lake, a resort area northeast of los angeles in the san bernardino mountains. and that's where the search has been focused with no real evidence of his whereabouts

until today when the sheriff's department there got a call about a home invasion. it's not clear how long ago this home invasion took place, although the person who was able to get free called, reported their pickup truck had been stolen, and that's what set this chain of events off, this pickup truck was spotted. there was a high-speed chase. it's not clear what happened. the pickup truck we now think may have run out of gas, may have had an accident, but then they followed tracks in the snow from the pickup truck into the woods and that's where this gunfire or this gunfight took place. we have reports from the police scanner and also from law enforcement officials that at least two officers, we believe them to be from the state fish and wildlife department of california, have been wounded. they have been taken to the hospital, to the arrowhead regional medical center, and the last report we have is that there is still this standoff in

the woods outside big bear lake, and that's where this six-day search for christopher dorner has led us to, chris. >> so as we know now, and we have to use the words alleged right now, but the thorts are seeking this man's arrest because of three killings, two attempted murders, and apparently based on the reporting i have seen, this guy is now eligible if he's convicted, eligible for capital punishment at this point. >> exactly right, chris, because he fired on police officers, the term of art under california law, i fired on peace officerses. i should point out in this manifesto, this bill of grievances he posted online, he made it clear, self-preservation is no longer important to me. i do not fear death as i died long ago, the day he was officially stripped of his badge on the lapd.

as clint pointed out, there has been a long fear here that what he was trying to do was to draw the police into some kind of final firefight that he knew would end in his death or might end in his death but he was also try to take as many law enforcement officers as he could with him. he said that all law enforcement officers were a fair target. he listed a number of others who he said were high value targets because they were directly involved in his case on the lapd. >> you know, it strikes me as very strange, this story. i have not been following it, but this man is obviously under a lot of pressure and delusion. there's kind of a notion here of romance in the sense that he's going to end in flames basically, in a firefight. it's like one of those old movies, you know "high sierra" or "white heat" or something. let me ask you about the authorities involved in tracking him. are they all l.a. sheriffs? what department has been pursuing and maybe in this firefight right now against him? >> it's been pretty much lapd

and in this area it's been the sheriff's department has had the lead on the investigation in the area where this gunfight is going on now. the san bernardino sheriff's department, also this is an area with a lot of resorts, a lot of state forest so the state fish and wild life is involved. we understand from the radio traffic that it's actually state fish and wild life officers, at least two who have been wounded so far. >> can you tell us now as we pick up on this case it reminds me of the white bronco this time of night in l.a. when o.j. simpson was being pursued. it seems to me there's a contradiction. is he trying to get away or trying to confront? >> well, that's the thing. he in this manifesto he made clear he was going to go after these people. and ever since the initial shootings on last sunday, a week ago yesterday, or a week ago -- i'm sorry, a week ago this weekend, the lapd has had about

50 families of current and former lapd officials, officers, officials under guard and have surveillance because they think this is where he was going to go. this is where he was going to try to head to take these people on, that he said that these were all high value targets in his words. and, you know, there's another thing, in his manifesto, it's interesting on this day where the president is going to give his state of the union and presumably talk about gun control, he says in his man fistow, if you had a well-regulated assault weapons ban, this would not happen. in his manifesto, he gives his own push for gun control and actually praises senator dianne feinstein for leading, as he says, you are doing the right thing in leading the reinstitution of a national assault weapons ban. >> this is certainly

kaleidoscopic in terms of his thinking. this person seems to be trying to escape at the same time trying to confront i guess his accusers back when he had his personnel fight with the lapd. >> sorry, chris, this has been ongoing. if we bring a clinical psychologist in, they're going to tell you this guy is narcissistic, he has this tremendous self-image of himself. well, all of these things are true, but i think his challenge is that he's also someone that has saved up injuries over the years, and he's made himself to be the ultimate victim for a number of different reasons over his life. he eventually obtained his dream job, an lapd officer. depending, if you listen to him he was -- if you listen to the

lapd, this guy wasn't cutting it as a police officer when he realized he might not get the job and he might not be able to stay on the street, they allege he made up a story, said his training officer beat up a suspect they were arresting. that eventually wound up in a -- basically a court hearing in the lapd. he was terminated because of that. but, chris, he still had his commission in the navy. as you know, he was a lieutenant in the naval reserve. he had been deployed, but then he felt that, as you know in the navy, if you don't make rank two different times in the military and you're an you a ser, the third time you're out. well, he didn't make lieutenant commander, so as of the first of the month -- [ inaudible ]. now bla tme the lapd for everything. he's going to hold them responsible and that's why he's

apparently targeted officers and their families. >> i worked in the government for years. there's always a number of people out there, in fact, a good number of them, who have had a problem with a bureaucracy. in this case the l.a. police department, where they have an incident where they feel wronged, aggrieved, and they spend the rest of their lives sometimes simply xeroxing copies of their complaint to everybody they know and then piling up their copies and they spend the rest of their lives trying to deal with something instead of moving on. this is obviously a much more grievous case where a person has been killing people because of this incident where he feels aggrieved. [ inaudible ]. >> i think we're missing -- we're going to have to get a better connection with you. we're going to have to try to get a better connection. we'd like you to come back and tell us -- let's go back to john yang at our bureau in los angeles. john, how long has this been a front page story out there? how long has this been, this manhunt, been a focus of attention? >> this has dominated the

headlines since thursday. that was the day there were the shootings -- the gun fight in torrens between lapd officers who were guarding a home, one of the targets, one of dorner's targets and they believe the gunfire with dorner. he then killed one riverside police officer who was responding to the scene and wounded another, and this search has been going on ever since. it's been dominating the news. it set this area on edge. there have been false alarms i think saturday night -- or sunday night, rather. there was a report that someone resembling dorner was seen at a lowe's hardware store in north ridge outside los angeles. police arrived. they emptied the store, went through everybody one by one to check their i.d.s, to check who they were, sort of detaining people for a very long time and wreaking havoc in the entire

neighborhood. chris, we now have a statement from the san bernardino sheriff's department. they say that at 2:22 this afternoon, that's 2:22 pacific time, 3:22 eastern time, deputies working on this search responded to a call for a stolen vehicle. the reporting party said the suspect took their vehicle and described the suspect as looking very similar to dorner. >> right. >> deputies immediately began a search on the ground and from the air. the vehicle was located on highway 31 and a glass road. he barricaded himself into a cabin. i believe that's the cabin we're looking at from the knbc helicopter. a short time later there was an exchange of gunfire between law enforcement and the suspect. sheriff s.w.a.t. team is on scene. two law enforcement officers are being airlifted to a local hospital with unknown injuries. that's our first official word as to what's going on up there in the san bernardino mountains.

>> let me ask you about christopher dorner, the man they're chasing right now. does he have any family members? anyone that might be brought in to try to speak out, to talk him out of his fight? >> he has -- his mother he's referred to in -- actually who -- according to law enforcement may own property in the area, up around big bear. he also has a sister. he refers to his manifesto to hi relations with both his mother and sister as having been destroy by what he went through by his dismissal from the lapd and the severe depression he suffered after it. >> it soames to me this man has a lot of trouble he's in now because killing a police officer as you say is a capital crime in california. also attempted murder of two other police officers. the killing of a daughter and a fiance of a former police captain. do we know what that -- what circumstance was there which led him to kill people who were

clearly not members of the police force that he's had this vendetta against? >> well, the young woman he killed was the daughter of a retired lapd captain turned lawyer who was his union rep in the hearing that led to his dismissal, and in his manifesto, he talks about how if a police officer is in that position, he should never have a union rep. he says never allow a union attorney to be a retired lapd captain. he doesn't work for you, your interests, for your home. he works for the department, period. his job is to protect the department from civil lawsuits being fired and their interests which is the almighty dollar. his loyalty is to the department, not his client. clearly he blames this retired lapd captain for what happened to him, and then extracted revenge by killing his daughter and also in an affidavit that

was filed to support the murder charges that were filed yesterday or the arrest warrant filed -- that was filed yesterday, they say on thursday a man identifying himself as dorner called this gentleman, this retired lapd captain who was mourning the death of his daughter, and taunted him by saying, you know, you didn't protect your daughter well enough. so it's clear 9 anger he feels toward these people. >> he's media savvy obviously, and i was wondering about the way the public is reacting in the l.a. community. i understand there are people even cheering for this person because of their attitude towards the history of the l.a. police in the past certainly. >> that's exactly right. there is this sort of well-known history and animosity between the lapd and especially the african-american community here in los angeles. there have been people online who have been supporting him in various ways.

some people online saying that if they spotted him, they would not call the police. you can't tell how big this movement is, but it's certainly being very vocal online and on twitter. >> i think he's very aware of how he can rally that group of people. we're going to go right now to get really good local coverage from knbc out in los angeles. >> -- initiated that allegedly. here we are now potentially if, in fact, christopher dorner, is holed up in this cabin, this could, in fact, be the beginning of the end. you have multiple law enforcement agencies. we talked about the san bernardino sheriff's department leading that search up in the mountains. you have other state agencies, the fbi, the u.s. marshals, and although his war was waged against the lapd and any officers who are helping, this is a brotherhood of law enforcement agencies, and here they are backing each other up in the mountains there. again, we can't get int too

closely because we want to protect the officers there are there. there are two officers who have been wounded. >> over at arrowhead regional medical scepter. news chopper 4 is overset but we want to express that he is very far away, at a very high altitude and we have a good good zoom lens on news chopper 4. one of the things he also has to worry about is in the middle of a gunfight you never know which way the bullets will fly. they want to keep everybody safe, the officers on the ground and, of course, any of the choppers that could be hit. >> and as we are -- as we know or at least as it's been confirmed that a man matching the description of christopher dorner has been holed up in a cabin for days likely watching news reports of all of this unfold. and if he's in another cabin now surrounded by law enforcement agencies, it's possible and perhaps even likely that he has

the tv going again, so we are being very careful and coordinating with law enforcement agencies to not show anything that could jeopardize this operation or put the officers on the ground in danger. >> highway 38 is one of these areas that's closed off right now, and jacob is there. jacob has been up on big bear for days now ever since that burned out truck was found in the big bear area. and, jacob, when you first arrived on scene, what did you see? >> reporter: when i first arrived, they were just blocking off the road, highway 38, again about 18 miles from where ground zero is from this gun battle. as i pulled up, i just my personal vehicle, an unmarked car as far as news goes. they waved me down frantically. i pulled over, and they said to me something to the effect of are you kidding? there are bullets flying. get out of here. and i asked if i could park just on the side of the road. they said you're welcome to. i told them i was with the press, but they were very intense, very quick with me,

just to see if i wasn't aware of the seriousness of the situation. they said there are bullets flying. it's a gun battle, and they asked me, you know, in the most polite terps they could at the time to pull over there. just as we have been talking here in the last 30 seconds, two more law enforcement vehicles have gone by, one suburban, another truck. they just keep coming. they haven't stopped for the last 40 minutes. >> jacob, i'm going to interrupt you for a moment to point out to our viewers what you're seeing right now. on the right, this is a screen of our news chopper 4 actually pulling back from the area. and we've just been given notice by sheriff mcmahon of the san bernardino county sheriff's department. he is asking our media helicopters to pull back or leave the area of the barricaded suspect. he says gunfire is being exchanged between law enforcement and the suspect. your personnel are in danger and could contribute to officer safety on the ground.

thank you for your cooperation. so that is why, of course, we are working with law enforcement officers there here at nbc 4 news. we want to make sure we don't put any of those officers' safety in jeopardy. that's your seeing that picture pull back and here we are going back to a live picture of one of the police roadblocks i believe on highway 38. so clearly at this point with multiple sources coming in, this is an active situation. we believe law enforcement officers believe christopher dorner is barricaded in a cabin and all indications are this could be the beginning of the end. >> chris dorner trapped in that cabin, trapped up on the mountain right now. chris riddle from the bear mountain resort is on the phone. this must be an intense time for you. i'm sure you're happy this is going to be hopefully over in the next few hours. what is going on? >> yeah. obviously there's been a lot of tension up in the mountains.

just the uncertainty of not knowing where this guy was this whole time. so what's happened today is right below bear mountain resort apparently there was a break-in and a couple was tied up and their car was stolen, and the chase went down highway 38 which is about 20 miles where they are right now, about 20 miles outside of big bear. so they've actually left the valley of big bear, and what caltrans is telling us right now due to this swatituation that a roads into the mountain are going to be closed. they're telling us right now that the skiers that are up here need to find a place to relax for a while at least and the commuters that would normally be coming up the mountain, they are not going to be able to come up for a while. so until further notice, we're -- everybody has got to stay put. >> and, chris, our viewers are watching one of those road blocks right now. we've actually seen armored

vehicles being towed up there on trailers up into the mountains. it looks like police are getting ready to escalate this standoff here. but from your perspective, if people are there trapped up in the ski resort, what are folks thinking? i mean, are they afraid? have you talked to anyone? i was there last weekend and it seemed as though people kind of were brushing it aside thinking we don't think he's really here anymore. at this point is the fear real? >> well, i think actually there's more relief now knowing that, number one, he's out of big bear, and, number two, that he's surrounded and, you know, there's going to be some form of resolution here. so there's kind of a collective sigh of relief that now at least we know where this guy is and, you know, he's not going to come barging through anybody's door up here anymore. so from that standpoint, i think, you know, it's kind of -- like i said, a sigh of relief. >> you don't see any officers,

any authorities, any deputies, marshals, fbi agents in your yar a area any longer? >> there certainly are. interestingly enough, that is also literally within a stone's throw of where the command center has been ever since this whole situation started. it was literally right there across the street. >> chris, stay with us for just a second. we have some news coming in from bear valley unified school district. big bear high, baldwin lane elementary, chautauqua high school, the lockdown is lifted. so, parents, you can go and pick up your children at this point. however, fallville elementary remains on lockdown. you know the area very well. is fallville elementary nearer to where this is going down, where that cabin is on seven oaks? >> absolutely. that school is in angeles oaks

which is close to that situation. >> very frightening for parents. i have another follow-up question but want to report something we're getting from the san bernardino county sheriffs department here. they are confirming two officers have been airlifted to the hospital although it has not been confirmed what agency they are with. again, a multiagency effort, and you see here in our live picture, an inland valley s.w.a.t. armored vehicle rushing to the scene. chris, i want to get back to what you were saying a moment ago. you know where the cabin is. i was there. i was interviewing skiers and snowboarders. how close was that cabin to the command post? were we in the media, law enforcement literally walking by this place every day? >> yes. you guys were probably right across the street from where this cabin was. you know, they've -- they're doing their investigation right now so i don't know exactly which cabin it is, but my

understanding it's right where the media was parked is where this went down earlier today. >> it's chilling to think about that possibility, that two innocent people potentially were being held against their will by this man allegedly christopher dorner who has declared war on the lapd, and i remember walking up and down that road. we were rushing around having the press briefings there. i was looking into those windows and there were people coming out of those cabins. so somebody was -- even neighbors were there and didn't notice anything. it's impossible for me to imagine that this is really what unfolded. i wonder if there was any sort of tip because we know that the san bernardino county sheriff's department was asking for surveillance video, and although it's speculation, i wonder if there was any sort of tip that came in that suggested that he was still in the area which is what prompted them to ask for surveillance video. has your ski resort gone over

any surveillance video to see if, in fact, there was anybody matching dorner's description walking in the area? >> yeah. we do have certain areas that we've got cameras set up, some outdoors and a lot of indoors. he wouldn't be in an indoor situation, but, yeah, we looked through, and as far as i know we have not found anything on any of ours. >> the cabin they were talking about is 1274 clubview road probably in big bear. that's the exact address, but, i mean, one can only imagine how scary it would have been for these women that may have been held hostage for days on end with people walking by, hearing authorities knocking on the door, and we know that the authorities were saying we're not going to just bust into a cabin if it looks like it's secure and if it looks like it's okay and nothing is going on. >> and authorities had many different tips and there was at one point there was a report of a cabin that was broken into. they went and checked it out. they went inside and it turns out if there was damage there,

it was old damage and nobody had been there for a long period of time. but again just haunting to think about -- we were discussing as we all rushed out to the scene at big bear, we were talking about being safe and making sure that we don't venture outside of that command post, to make sure we stay safe. and the fact that this cabin was right there in the middle of everything. not only could christopher dorner or this man matching his description been watching us on tv, he could have been watching us out of a window. >> absolutely he was. if he was in that cabin, he was surveying the scene because he was a former lapd officer, former reservist in the navy. he was trained to watch, and that's very, very key. so he was most definitely watching. chris riddle, those skiers and the people up there at your resort right now, have authorities said how long this may last or do they just need to stay there for the day? >> they are fine with us in normal operation here. but i guess the only situation

is that they're not going to be able to get off the mountain for a while. so they're just going to have to either hunker down for a while or maybe even spend the night and spend another day skiing. >> and forgive me, we're getting information coming into us right now so, chris and our viewers, please bear with us. again, we are showing you a live picture now of highway 38. one of the road blocks there. we have reporters all over the region. we have jacob on the other side of the road block -- >> we've been watching knbc's report out of los angeles. let's go to our bureau in los angeles for nbc, john yang. john, bring us up to date on the situation. have you gotten any word beyond what we're getting from the affiliate? >> we're getting -- the information seems to be shutting down. the police scanners have gone silent on this. i think they may have switched to another frequency so that we can't hear what they're doing. as knbc was reporting, they've asked the news helicopters to

move out and the faa has put in restrictions over the area. they say, the sheriff's department says that's for the protection of the news crews, but i think you also saw one of the reasons why they would like the tv choppers out in those pictures of what was going up the road to that cabin, some armored vehicles, some -- it looked like an armored vehicle with snow tracks on it that could maneuver in the snow. it's entirely possible if there is power in that cabin that dorner is watching all of this, and they don't want him to know what they're doing. they don't want him to know what they're doing outside the cabin beyond his view. they don't want him to know what equipment is being moved up there. we are sort of losing some information. we have been learning though that there were three schools in the area that had been on lockdown. parents were being advised not to go pick up their kids. it's now about 2:30 here in los angeles.

that lockdown has been lifted at two of the three schools. one is still on lockdown. that's why as you heard them talking, this cabin where he is now -- or where he was is very, very close to the command center. the command post that had been set up by officials and by where the media was located, and they are now sort of thinking that he could have actually seen them outside the window, not just on television. they were going door-to-door in this area. there are a lot of cabins up there that are vacant, a lot of second homes that weren't occupied when the search began. they were going door-to-door, they were knocking on doors. if there was no answer, they weren't breaking in unless there was sign of forcible entry. so a lot of people are wondering how he could have been holed up here for this long and it could well be that nobody answered when the door knocked, and i know your reference to "high

sierra" is very apt in this case. >> yeah. >> in that he could have just had everyone stay quiet and not respond. so this standoff is continuing. we don't know exactly what's going on. there have been shots fired between dorner and law enforcement officials. at least two officers have been wounded we understand. we believe them to be from the state fish and wild life department. they have been medevacked to a hospital. that hospital, by the way, now has a heavy police presence around it, but we have no official word yet on the conditions of those two officers. >> john, it seems to be a case where this person we're chasing here, christopher dorner, who is alleged to have committed these murders against a police officer and, of course, the daughter and fiance of a police captain, a former police captain, and then attempted murder charges are

pending against him with the other two police officers and apparently there's two more people wounded today, police officers again today, that he has a media sense. that he wants a lot of play here. that he's calling up charlie sheen who is troubled himself over the years and trying to make some kind of statement through the media here. how would you reckon that right now, how he's building -- rallying this group of supporters who see him as almost a challenger, a citizen challenger of the police department out there in its history. >> people online talking about this guy is taking a stand for a cause. he's talked about what he calls the racism inside the lapd. he says that nothing has changed from the christopher commission, from the rampart scandal, and that the consent decree should never have been lifted governing what was going on. he does have a great media sense, and part of his -- chris, i don't know if you're aware of

this, but part of his manifesto talks a great deal about media figures he admires, and, chris, i got to tell you, you're on that list. he praises you, praises joe scarborough, brian williams, meredith vieira, that advice smiley, anderson cooper, he does have a great sense of the media. he clearly watches and understands what's going on and this message that he posted online certainly reflects that, and i don't know whether it was calculated or not, but as you say, he has gotten some support online and on twitter. >> yeah. i think it's one of those things in life, as we're seeing in this tragic case that will probably get more tragic as the hours go on, that people can have a high iq, tremendous sensitivity in certain areas, and also be emotional troubled to the point of this horror story. let's bring in former fbi profiler clint van zandt who really know this is kind of a

situation. we're looking at a complicated case here, clint, and looking at someone who has high intelligence but has gone through a period in his life and through an indent which he has not been able to recover from and move on at all to the horror and to the death of several people now. >> chris, this is someone who has accumulated these wrongs against him over the years, and as you and i were talking earlier, he's built a giant file of this, and he ultimately blames all the challenges in his life basically on being fired from the lapd, suggesting that that police department is k corrupt and he was trying in his own way to help clean it up. and then he believes his termination by the navy when the navy let him go and didn't promote him to lieutenant commander, he believes that also relates to him being released from the lapd. but realize, chris, it's been three or more, four years since he left thep d. it was only february isst th1ste

gave up his commission or it was taken away. one wonders how long in this guy's mind he's been scheming, pulling all these weapons and thoughts together and then sit down to write that manifesto and create this target list that at least the lapd had at least 50 people on it. >> but he can't achieve all these goals. he can't kill all the people he has targeted, end up in kind of a dramatic barricade situation, and escape. i mean, these are three goals that are all in conflict. it's tragic and ludicrous. how can he get even with all these people he has a vendetta against, escape, and end up in this horrific sort of flash of hell he seems to be setting up here perhaps? >> well, we've got two things, chris. number one, it could just be this monstrous fantasy that he has in his mind that he was trying to live out. the other, and i think you make a valid point that this guy is

media savvy. he wants to manipulate. he wants his story out. he wants everything to be heard about him, and at this point whether he lives or dies, he's trying to set up a scenario where he is remembered in the way he wants to be as opposed to the way most people believe he actually was. >> we're on here now. clint, let me ask you about this. have you been following the way in which some of the people supporting this person, this fugitive, have identified him with the words of malcolm x that almost anything goes in a cause? >> yeah, i really have, chris. i spent last night and the night before reading hundreds of postings on blog sites about people that were cheering him on, hoping he gets away, hoping he suk seeds, calling him the dark knight against racism. he is suspected to have killed three people to include this

young woman and her fiance, and remember, the young woman who was killed, her father, an attorney, former police captain, represented dorner in his hearings with the lapd, and that was the man who said dorner had been railroadsed and did everything he could to stand behind dorner and he still went out and killed this man's daughter. >> it's horrible. we're going to tie to get more -- hang in there, clint. we're going to go back to john yang for a moment. this case -- just give us a sense again of the media focus on this and some cases media fascination if that's the right word with this tragic set of events. >> chris, this has been all over the front pages since thursday. television, local tv has been covering this wall to wall. they've had -- they've come up with titles for this. our local affiliate, our nbc station has been calling it manifesto for murder. they have had break-ins for

every -- a lot of developments, for a lot of false -- what have turned out to be in the past false alarms, suspected sightings of dorner that turned out to be false alarms. this has gripped this entire region, and the search has been going on from the mountains of the san bernardino county down to the border with mexico, south of san diego. it has covered this entire corner of the state and really dominated the news coverage in the past six days. >> this symmetry, symbiosis between a criminal mind and the media, it seems so l.a. >> i loved your reference at the top of the show about the white bronco chase with o.j. simpson. it also reminds me of the fact that tonight is the state of the union. i believe that the verdict was

returned on the o.j. civil trial the night of a state of the union address is my recollection. >> that's pure coincidence. maybe we're going too far here but i do sense something here about this man's motives and how they seem to be so directed to getting attention and that's not unusual. it's not unusual in suicide cases of the normal kind. here you have a barricade suicide thing. looks like it's heading toward that direction, unfortunately, for everyone. hold on, john. let's go to dr. jen berman, a psycho therapist, he is based in beverly kills. he's read the manifesto. thank you for joining us. >> by the way, i'm a she. >> i can't tell. tell us what you can about having read the manifesto and being a professional in these kind of situations. >> absolutely. what i see is a lot of paranoia, and i understand, by the way, that just because you're paranoid doesn't mean people aren't out to get you. he talks a lot about racism and we know looking at his history that he was the only

african-american kid at norwalk christian and he felt persecuted starting at an early age. he describes a lot of incidences where he feels persecuted. he feels his name has been tarnished. at this point he feels he has nothing to lose, his name has been tarnished and he's very likely to go down in what he perceives as a blaze of glory. >> well, help me out in terms of what condition would you say he's in? how would you describe, is it psychosis, is it somebody disturbed by a horrific incident in his life and -- >> it's -- >> it's that they've resorted to killing people. that's why we're talking about him. >> it's hard to say without personally examining someone and doing a full -- in order to do a full diagnosis, but, you know, obviously this is a guy who is mentally ill. whether it's a result of a

trauma that happened early on in his life or whether this is some kind of paranoid delusion or paranoid schizophrenia or something like that, it's very hard to tell, but what we do know is this guy is no longer in reality. he's someone who has a very strong sense, believe it or not at least in his own mind, a strong sense of right and wrong. and a black and white thinking. and that he really feels he has been wrong and he has nothing to lose. when it comes to someone who is this violent, once they feel that they have nothing to lose, that's when it gets incredibly dangerous. >> the fact is he may be held for capital punishment at this point because of shooting a police officer. but let me ask you about the tribunal he seeks here. he seems to want publicity. he calls up charlie sheen. he's making mention of people in the media. he's doing things to try to arouse attention. who is his tribunal? who does he want to be judged by and thought well by? >> i think everybody. i think he feels that he has been wrongly judged by police

officers and now by people -- by the media -- >> who is he resorting to here in this final perhaps hours of his life? who knows. who is he resorting to in all this media grab here. >> when you say resorting to, do you mean who is he reaching out to or hoping to appeal to? >> both. the latter actually. >> i think he's hoping to in his own perception to save his name. that he feels that his name has been wronged and he wants to make sure that if he goes down, that everyone knows that he was a good guy because in his perception, believe it or not, he's a good guy. he is seeking justice. he feels like he is completely right in killing people because he was so wronged. >> will you -- you talk about his high school experience being the only african-american person. as a white person i have no idea how that feels. in the imagination of people that can be a very hard experience. it's the kind of thing you put

up because you're not cool. kids have terrible experiences in high school. i would argue you put people under sodium pentothal and most would say they hated high school. >> i would agree. >> thank you. it's not the best years of your life. but in this case with the experience which he has called attention to be the reason for this kind of emotional horror story here or is it something very early in his life that probably caused this? >> it is probably something very early in his life, but, you know, typically it's the perfect storm of events whether it was a trauma in childhood and then bullying in high school and then feeling singled out when he became a police officer and then also we have his divorce in 2007, which was shortly after he became a police officer, you know, and then being fired in 2008. so he had a series of stressors and probably a series of traumas that created the perfect storm for him to have this break. >> and then to choose in his life to be a police officer, to join our military and serve our

country in the marines. probably the most high-stress career direction you could take in life for a person who has a fragility to start with. >> absolutely. and it's also people who are drawn to that have a strong sense of right and wrong. they have a strong sense of justice, and this is a guy who feels that there's been a terrible injustice committed to him, and now he needs to right that wrong in his perception. >> if you had a bull horn right now and you had to address him to try to relax him and convince him that no matter what he does now, he should stop killing people, he should stop right now, what would you say -- is there any way to approach a person in these desperate straits? >> i would say you're not going to correct people's perception of you or change your good name by being shot and killed or by killing anyone else. >> and you think that might work? >> not necessarily. i think this guy is pretty far gone. i think that he feels a sense of pride. i think it's very likely he will

put himself in a position where he has to be killed. >> i was just thinking and always the optimist if you know me, i'm always the optimist, and i was thinking when he took those people prisoner in their own home out there in the san bernardino mountains there, that he didn't kill them. he tied them up. that's more effort than killing somebody in these horrible situations. the fact he only feels a vendetta toward police officials, is that a sign of hope, that he has only has one horrendous set of targets -- >> but he killed the daughter of a police officer and her fiance. even by association. so, no, i don't think that anyone is safe from this man. i think that he will stop at nothing, even though his rage is really focused at -- >> so he's out of control. >> no one is safe. >> thank you very much, doctor. it's great to have you on in these terrible moments. thank you jen berman in beverly hil hills. >> we have the mayor of big bear lake, california. mr. mayor, thank you.

can you give us a tense of the top topography, the community we're talking about, and the kind of line shacks -- are these summer cottages? what kind of homes are out there in that area? >> if you're talking about the area where all the activity is taking place and the suspect is holed up, it's an area called seven oaks, about eight miles to the south of big bear lake. it's an unincorporated area and it's very rural, not very many residents out there. >> and so how -- why would a person go out there? do you think a person would go out there just because it is so remote. it's a place to hide? >> my understanding was there was a home invasion and a carjacking up here in the city of big bear lake and then the suspect drove that vehicle down. >> and let me ask you about is that largely occupied year round or is it a summer resort area? >> well, that particular area i'm not 100% sure. the city of big bear lake and the surrounding communities, we have a community of full-time

residents and a larger community of vacation homes. >> are there any african-americans that live there or is it largely a white community? >> there are a few. i don't think we notice the color of people's skin to be honest with you. >> good for you. let me ask you about the situation for a police action there. if you were firing on a house out there, would there be a lot of danger of cross fire hitting other people or is it remote enough and people isolated from each other in a way they could carry on a police action that wouldn't endanger lives? >> you know, it's pretty isolated and we have a lot of faith in the law enforcement community. they have been highly professional in their dealings up here and my experience, and so i have no doubt if there were any residents that were potentially in danger, they have already gotten those people out. >> have you got any word on which authorities are working there? is the sheriff's department of los angeles, are they the police officers involved right now in the pursuit? >> there are many, many different law enforcement communities up here. i think it's fair to say the whole world has come crashing down on mr. dorner. >> wow. thank you so much for joining us

mr. mayor. sorry to see this happen in your community. let's go back to andrew blankstein. thank you, sir for joining us. what have we missed so far. we're trying to pick up on a story that's local to los angeles but it's become, because of the horrible ending to it perhaps tonight, it's become national perhaps worldwide as a story. >> well, obviously it's kind of got all the twists and turns of any kind of hollywood drama. the people i talk to say the truth is even stranger than fiction here. we started last thursday with -- actually last wednesday night with the announcement that the manhunt was on. this facebook posting which was compared to a manifesto, the attempted boat robbery in san diego, a couple shootouts with officers, including one that killed a riverside police officer and gravely wounded another. and then the search ends -- seems to end in the san bernardino mountains. everybody was kind of saying he

was off the grid, and then today we have this kind of dramatic moment where he is alleged to have robbed a couple, taken their truck, and then two fish and wildlife officers with the state of california see his truck. there's a gun battle, and then that turns into what we're kind of seeing now in the overhead pictures, the shootout with san bernardino county sheriff's deputies, two are wounded, and that's where we are right now and it's still unfolding. >> how do you write a story like this that's objective for the big metropolitan paper, the los angeles sometimes? there editors saying we have to be careful, it's notwell, i thi this past monday that really looked at the board of rights hearing which seems to be kind of center stage in his complaints against the lapd that led to his firing. i think you have to look at all aspects to be objective. certainly the big story today is what unfolded in this drama in

the man hunt. that doesn't preclude other important stories with the leadup to why this happened. and i think we've already done a couple stories in that. and there's going to be more in the coming days. i think certainly the chief of police for the lapd, charlie beck, has heard from people in the community that are worried about the way the disciplinary -- not only disciplinary system in general but how this case was handled. so this is kind of where we're heading. but right now we have this unfolding situation. so i think those will be stories for the coming days for sure. >> of course the conflict here is even if he was badly handled his case over the years, you know, unfairly treated, the way he's reacted to it shows a man who is unstable to begin with. >> well, somebody said, chris -- somebody said that, you know, it doesn't excuse the behavior. it somewhat may explain it. >> some may explain when you have cases like this where you

see a person who just goes off the deep end to the horror and tragedy of many others. where you wonder whether there wasn't something in the hearings that suggested there was a real problem with this fella. not just with the department but the military he's involved with. something's going on here that must have been deductible at the time. let me ask you about the l.a. times tonight. this story, is this going to be one of the big stories in los angeles police history, this one? >> oh, i think easily. i've covered all kinds of stories from the north hollywood bank shootout to either the blake murder trial to -- i can't -- it goes back so long i can't remember them all. this has to rank up there in the top three or four if not the top. it's got all the twists and turns. it's got everything. yeah, i would say this is kind of uncharted territory. >> the accusations fairly or not. it would well be fairly unfair.

based on the past history or whatever. you've got pursuit situation. you've got the media involved. it's so big and widespread and vast. in its dimensions here. it's so l.a. you don't have this kind of new york or philadelphia story. this is an l.a. story. it looks visually like one. >> i'm an east coast guy, chris, and yeah. this is kind of an only in l.a. kind of stunt. >> unfortunately for all you out there. thank you for joining us. let me go back to clint van zandt formerly of the fbi. as i said a couple seconds ago, there's so much to the story. but in the end it's about human beings and police officers risking their lives to bring this to an end. >> it is. we've got these two stories. we've got dorner claiming these allegations of racism within the police department that we all know l.a. has dealt with that over the years. but the justification of killing people to try to get attention,

that's not going to fly and it shouldn't fly. no matter what race he is and no matter what race anyone else is. the challenge right now, chris, if you could imagine, if this situation continues as you suggest he's barricaded in a cabin. i would tell you, chris, he's probably -- if the fight is still going on, he's on automatic pilot right now. as a police officer, as a military combatant, he's moving from window to window. he's firing. this is -- for some people this would be the ultimate video game. however, of course, lives are very much in danger right now. law enforcement by this time will have this cabin surrounded. realize, chris, they'll try to talk him out. as a hostage negotiator, i'd reach out with a bull horn as you indicated earlier. but if you pop up with this bull horn, this guy will shoot at you. and we're not giving away any secrets to these guys if he's watching tv. they'll probably put gas in and

try to force him out. but we also know when his burned out vehicle was found, there was at least one gas mask inside of that. he may have others. >> well, if he's listening, he shouldn't kill anybody else obviously. i don't know what influence anybody has on him at this point. let me ask you about adrenaline rush. you described the situation of a man fighting for his life. a circumstance which he created. racing from window to window. his adrenaline pumping. is he in a situation he's more acutely able to kill somebody. a guy that's ready to kill. i would think it would be quite dangerous. >> yeah. we're told he already has shot two officers in this confrontation within the last hour and a half or so. and with this automatic pilot i think he's on that law enforcement or people in military, you go to your training. when you're being shot at and confronted, right now he is a one-man army and he feels he's

standing up against everybody. and i guarantee you he doesn't care what color they are out there. if they're in a uniform, they represent who he believes to be the enemy who he believes to be responsible. and if he happens to take a break and watch msnbc, i would say to him, christopher, you've got one chance to get your story out. and that's lay down your weapons and come out and get that story out. i hope he listens to a message like that. he's a smart guy. i don't know if he's smart enough to do that, though, chris. >> and there you see the situation. a man with apparently keen intelligence, media savvy, all those things. yet trouble beyond imagination. let me ask you as a professional, is he aiming towards a suicide death here? meaning in the flurry of bullets he hopes to go down? >> well, he always has the chance to surrender. you can always put the weapon down and yell i'm coming out with my hands up. there are going to be multiple

agencies, no one who's watching this can say oh, yeah, the police are there. they just want to kill him. they'll kill him if he shoots at them, but they'll give him the chance. you don't have much of a chance to say come out if bullets are coming at your head. you shoot back. and that's the situation. these officers likely find themselves in. this is more like a shootout in afghanistan than it is a shootout in the mountains north of l.a. >> just while -- we have to end here. do we know his military training? he was trab trained in riflery, right? he knows how to shoot a gun. >> yeah. rifles, handguns. we know he's had semiautomatic weapons, sniper weapons, multiple pistols. i've heard he has owned up to 50 weapons. so the question is how many was he able to bring in that cabin with him? how much ammunition, how long does he want to hold out before this is finally resolved?

and he's the one that can resolve it one way or the other. he can either surrender or he can die inside of that. law enforcement will give him the chance to surrender, but they're not going to jeopardize the life of any more law enforcement officers. >> let's go through the casualties so far. police officer killed. the daughter and fiance of a former police captain killed. two wounded people as well. this guy, if he gets taken into custody, will be held for capitol murder probably. he's probably going to face capitol punishment, is that fair to say? is that always up to the discretion of the judge? >> i think that's fair to say. i think that's what he would likely assume in his mind. now, the question is also in his mind, would he like a scenario where he gets a chance to stand up in court and talk about the alleged acts of racism that took place when he was a child, when he was in the p.d., perhaps when he was in the military. that would give him a forum t